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Asked by sam2208 to Emma, Jimmy, Janet, Niall, Simon on 13 Mar 2013.
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James Holloway answered on 13 Mar 2013:
So lets take the example of the eye. According to Michael Behe’s theory the eye could not have evolved because it is too complex, and if you take one piece out the whole thing doesn’t work. So it could not have possibly evolved in stages as evolution says it does.
Here is an example of how small changes can give a bigger and bigger advantage to a creature and end up with a whole complex eye:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Diagram_of_eye_evolution.svgYou can even see some of these stages still in nature, like the ancient nautilus eye is comparable to stage ‘3’ in the above link.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS9btVKGhR84wywlIvhDW-UK2Ed58szGuGHIOJ8IaEk7zCApWt0So yes I think evolution explains how a complex device can evolve, and trumps the theory of irriducible complexity.
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Niall Crawford answered on 14 Mar 2013:
Yeah I’d agree with James. The fact that eyes have evolved several times in the animal kingdom show that it isn’t too complex for evolution.
Comments
sam2208 commented on :
The eye can indeed be broken down into comparable parts to ‘show’ evolution; but what about the bacterial flagellum. It’s specific make-up shows that it cannot be broken down into any stages which could be of any use to the bacteria- unless one accepts that comparitively massive jumps in evolution could have occured!
Jimmy commented on :
Hi Sam,
So flagella of microbes is an interesting topic!
A few comments to start us of. There are thousands of different types of flagella, with different shapes and comprising of different proteins. There are also many similar systems found in the world of bacteria, such as tubes used to pass genetic information from one cell to another, hooks and barbs and strings that stick the bacteria to other cells or surfaces. Also, flagella are not irreducibly complex, here is an excerpt from a discussion on the topic (warning: pretty technical):
“The bacterial flagellum is not even irreducible. Some bacterial flagella function without the L- and P-rings. In experiments with various bacteria, some components (e.g. FliH, FliD (cap), and the muramidase domain of FlgJ) have been found helpful but not absolutely essential (Matzke 2003). One third of the 497 amino acids of flagellin have been cut out without harming its function (Kuwajima 1988). Furthermore, many bacteria have additional proteins that are required for their own flagella but that are not required in the “standard” well-studied flagellum found in E. coli. Different bacteria have different numbers of flagellar proteins (in Helicobacter pylori, for example, only thirty-three proteins are necessary to produce a working flagellum), so Behe’s favorite example of irreducibility seems actually to exhibit quite a bit of variability in terms of numbers of required parts (Ussery 1999). ”
Here is a link to the page where they also discuss a series of beneficial mutations that result in a flagellum:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200_1.html
There are countless complex systems in nature, some of them seem irreducibly complex at face value. Only knowing the full history of environments that the organism was exposed to can shed light on how such a system came to be. Sadly this information has been lost to the sands of time. Remember, if a system is found that evolutionary biologists cannot explain then that doesn’t mean it cannot be explained. These are difficult problems and science takes time 🙂
sam2208 commented on :
Thanks and well explained. 😀
sam2208 commented on :
What about the age of the Earth? Here is an extract from a site on the age of the Earth:
1. MOON DUST
Meteoritic dust falls on the earth continuously, adding up to thousands, if not millions, of tons of dust per year. Realizing this, and knowing that the moon also had meteoritic dust piling up for what they thought was millions of years, N.A.S.A. scientists were worried that the first lunar ship that landed would sink into the many feet of dust which should have accumulated.
However, only about one-eighth of an inch of dust was found, indicating a young moon.
Meteoritic material contributes nickel to the oceans. Taking the amount of nickel in the oceans and the supply from meteoritic dust yields an age figure for the earth of just several thousand years, not the millions (or billions) expressed by evolutionists. This, and the lack of meteoritic dust piles on the earth, lend to the belief in a young earth.
2. MAGNETIC FIELD
The earth’s magnetic field is decaying rapidly, at a constant (if not decreasing) rate. At this rate, 8000 years ago the earth’s magnetism would have equaled that of a magnetic star, a highly unlikely occurrence. Also, if electric currents in the earth’s core are responsible for the earth’s magnetism, the heat generated by these currents 20,000 years ago would have dissolved the earth.
Thanks again!
salej014 commented on :
Hey Sam, it’s Junaid.
Very interesting, I’d still like to know how old do you think the Earth is?
The oldest things so far found on earth are zircon crystals found in Western Australia, that are more than 4 billion years old. Moon rocks have been found to be just over 4 billion years old, evidence that the earth and the moon were formed at the same time and from the same material.
sam2208 commented on :
Hey Junaid, as you know, I am a Christian and believe that God made the world. I am not asking about the magnetic field of the Earth because I am a young earth creationist- ( I believe that God could make the earth in six days but I don’t know if he did- I am still deciding.)- but just to see James’s response. By the way, how were the zircon crystals dated?